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	<title>Comments on: Fascism and Starship Troopers, Once More</title>
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	<link>http://hyperpat.wordpress.com/2006/12/28/fascism-and-starship-troopers-once-more/</link>
	<description>SF, science, and daily living</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 15:35:59 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Chauncey Maddren</title>
		<link>http://hyperpat.wordpress.com/2006/12/28/fascism-and-starship-troopers-once-more/#comment-741</link>
		<dc:creator>Chauncey Maddren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Feb 2007 16:14:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hyperpat.wordpress.com/2006/12/28/fascism-and-starship-troopers-once-more/#comment-741</guid>
		<description>Certainly the publishers do nothing to point out discrepancies between the book and the movie.  (e.g., covers of the paperback editions featuring pictures of actors from the movie) Its bad for business.  I&#039;m just hoping that people will be more critical of what they see, hear and read.  I guess, like Heinlein, I&#039;m an optimist in that way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Certainly the publishers do nothing to point out discrepancies between the book and the movie.  (e.g., covers of the paperback editions featuring pictures of actors from the movie) Its bad for business.  I&#8217;m just hoping that people will be more critical of what they see, hear and read.  I guess, like Heinlein, I&#8217;m an optimist in that way.</p>
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		<title>By: hyperpat</title>
		<link>http://hyperpat.wordpress.com/2006/12/28/fascism-and-starship-troopers-once-more/#comment-734</link>
		<dc:creator>hyperpat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Feb 2007 23:37:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hyperpat.wordpress.com/2006/12/28/fascism-and-starship-troopers-once-more/#comment-734</guid>
		<description>Looking at the movie in isolation, totally divorced from the book, it probably can be taken as a warning against a militarily dominated society. But my objection to it is that it &lt;i&gt;can&#039;t&lt;/i&gt; be seen in isolation, that people who see it (who haven&#039;t read the book) will automatically assume that this is what the book says, a great disservice to what Heinlein was trying to say. 

My two sons saw it before reading the book, and they liked the movie, thinking it was a pretty good action/adventure flick, and both kind of blew off the philosophic/political implications of the depicted society. Later, I finally convinced my eldest to read the book. He ended up using about twenty quotes from the book for a debate about political philosophy in his history class (which his side won), and totally changed his opinion of the movie to be very similar to mine. But most people will never read the book (though there were certainly some drawn to it that would never otherwise have looked at it without the influence of the movie), and in their minds Heinlein and fascism will be inextricably linked.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looking at the movie in isolation, totally divorced from the book, it probably can be taken as a warning against a militarily dominated society. But my objection to it is that it <i>can&#8217;t</i> be seen in isolation, that people who see it (who haven&#8217;t read the book) will automatically assume that this is what the book says, a great disservice to what Heinlein was trying to say. </p>
<p>My two sons saw it before reading the book, and they liked the movie, thinking it was a pretty good action/adventure flick, and both kind of blew off the philosophic/political implications of the depicted society. Later, I finally convinced my eldest to read the book. He ended up using about twenty quotes from the book for a debate about political philosophy in his history class (which his side won), and totally changed his opinion of the movie to be very similar to mine. But most people will never read the book (though there were certainly some drawn to it that would never otherwise have looked at it without the influence of the movie), and in their minds Heinlein and fascism will be inextricably linked.</p>
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		<title>By: Chauncey Maddren</title>
		<link>http://hyperpat.wordpress.com/2006/12/28/fascism-and-starship-troopers-once-more/#comment-726</link>
		<dc:creator>Chauncey Maddren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Feb 2007 21:13:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hyperpat.wordpress.com/2006/12/28/fascism-and-starship-troopers-once-more/#comment-726</guid>
		<description>Patrick - I agree wholeheartedly with your criticism of Itzkoff’s unfortunate labeling of Heinlein’s Starship Troopers as “an endorsement of fascism.”  I remember hearing similar statements when the movie first came out.  Heinlein’s novel is anything but.  Fascism takes hold when the citizens of a nation relinquish their active involvement in the affairs of their own government in favor of less complicated ideas and actions spoon fed to them by their leaders.  Starship Troopers is another variation on a common theme for Heinlein:  responsibility of the individual to the society in which he lives.  Though military service is not compulsory in Starship Troopers, it is highly respected and valued by the society, because it is in this way that an individual expresses his active involvement in the society/nation in which he lives.  I see Starship Troopers, in part, as Heinlein’s ode to the members of the military who have fought for our country. 

Fighting for that which one believes in is a very important concept in Heinlein’s works.  I’m reminded of the character of John Lyle in If This Goes On (from The Past Through Tomorrow stories).  When the story begins, he is a member in the military forces of the theocratic dictatorship of the Prophet (an obvious fascist state that fits your dictionary definition perfectly).  When he realizes that he is on the wrong side, he turns and fights in army of the resistance.  Interestingly, much of his contribution to the resistance is not on the front lines but in desk work and logistical support.

I think the movie version of Starship Troopers has contributed to the misunderstanding of the novel.  (I, too, wonder if some people ever read the book.)  Paul Verhoven obviously had his own ax to grind when he directed the film.  I think Verhoven was trying to make a point similar to Heinlein’s.  In his own way, he wanted to expostulate on the dangers of our self-absorbed society, in which citizens accept the propaganda of their government without examining it more closely, thus leading to fascism.  (Any contemporary examples come to mind?)    His attempt, however, is much less successful.  It is shallow and barely scratches the surface in favor of cute-ness and showy action sequences.

It is unfortunate that people have misjudged Heinlein’s intent in this case.  But, to those of us who have read more that just one of his books, it is very clear.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Patrick &#8211; I agree wholeheartedly with your criticism of Itzkoff’s unfortunate labeling of Heinlein’s Starship Troopers as “an endorsement of fascism.”  I remember hearing similar statements when the movie first came out.  Heinlein’s novel is anything but.  Fascism takes hold when the citizens of a nation relinquish their active involvement in the affairs of their own government in favor of less complicated ideas and actions spoon fed to them by their leaders.  Starship Troopers is another variation on a common theme for Heinlein:  responsibility of the individual to the society in which he lives.  Though military service is not compulsory in Starship Troopers, it is highly respected and valued by the society, because it is in this way that an individual expresses his active involvement in the society/nation in which he lives.  I see Starship Troopers, in part, as Heinlein’s ode to the members of the military who have fought for our country. </p>
<p>Fighting for that which one believes in is a very important concept in Heinlein’s works.  I’m reminded of the character of John Lyle in If This Goes On (from The Past Through Tomorrow stories).  When the story begins, he is a member in the military forces of the theocratic dictatorship of the Prophet (an obvious fascist state that fits your dictionary definition perfectly).  When he realizes that he is on the wrong side, he turns and fights in army of the resistance.  Interestingly, much of his contribution to the resistance is not on the front lines but in desk work and logistical support.</p>
<p>I think the movie version of Starship Troopers has contributed to the misunderstanding of the novel.  (I, too, wonder if some people ever read the book.)  Paul Verhoven obviously had his own ax to grind when he directed the film.  I think Verhoven was trying to make a point similar to Heinlein’s.  In his own way, he wanted to expostulate on the dangers of our self-absorbed society, in which citizens accept the propaganda of their government without examining it more closely, thus leading to fascism.  (Any contemporary examples come to mind?)    His attempt, however, is much less successful.  It is shallow and barely scratches the surface in favor of cute-ness and showy action sequences.</p>
<p>It is unfortunate that people have misjudged Heinlein’s intent in this case.  But, to those of us who have read more that just one of his books, it is very clear.</p>
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		<title>By: hyperpat</title>
		<link>http://hyperpat.wordpress.com/2006/12/28/fascism-and-starship-troopers-once-more/#comment-691</link>
		<dc:creator>hyperpat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Feb 2007 19:40:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hyperpat.wordpress.com/2006/12/28/fascism-and-starship-troopers-once-more/#comment-691</guid>
		<description>An excellent article, sir!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An excellent article, sir!</p>
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		<title>By: David Wright Sr.</title>
		<link>http://hyperpat.wordpress.com/2006/12/28/fascism-and-starship-troopers-once-more/#comment-690</link>
		<dc:creator>David Wright Sr.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Feb 2007 19:09:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hyperpat.wordpress.com/2006/12/28/fascism-and-starship-troopers-once-more/#comment-690</guid>
		<description>Oh, I agree. That&#039;s why I used the term &#039;careless reader&#039;.

In the following articles
http://dwrighsr.tripod.com/heinlein/RatAnarch/

I wrote what I considered Heinlein actually was saying, not &quot;Government is highest thing you must &lt;b&gt;pay fealty&lt;/b&gt; to&quot; but that one can recognize that one&#039;s own self-interest can depend on the preservation of higher levels simple self-preservation, even to the level of nation or species.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, I agree. That&#8217;s why I used the term &#8216;careless reader&#8217;.</p>
<p>In the following articles<br />
<a href="http://dwrighsr.tripod.com/heinlein/RatAnarch/" rel="nofollow">http://dwrighsr.tripod.com/heinlein/RatAnarch/</a></p>
<p>I wrote what I considered Heinlein actually was saying, not &#8220;Government is highest thing you must <b>pay fealty</b> to&#8221; but that one can recognize that one&#8217;s own self-interest can depend on the preservation of higher levels simple self-preservation, even to the level of nation or species.</p>
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		<title>By: hyperpat</title>
		<link>http://hyperpat.wordpress.com/2006/12/28/fascism-and-starship-troopers-once-more/#comment-689</link>
		<dc:creator>hyperpat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Feb 2007 18:52:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hyperpat.wordpress.com/2006/12/28/fascism-and-starship-troopers-once-more/#comment-689</guid>
		<description>I certainly agree that Heinlein forced his readers to look at things from wherever they were coming from, and figure out if their own assumptions/biases/opinions were valid. Often this was accomplished by making statements or describing situations that were different from most commonly held opinions about what was right, proper, or possible. As an example, for those who think monogamous marriages are the only possible way humans can structure the male/female relationship, Heinlein&#039;s detailing of not only other possible structures, but what advantages such structures would have would come as something of a shock.  

But what I was complaining about was those readers who don&#039;t actually look at what Heinlein really said. Heinlein did not say &quot;Government is highest thing you must pay fealty to&quot; (far from it), but way too many people reading Starship Troopers seem to gather that impression.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I certainly agree that Heinlein forced his readers to look at things from wherever they were coming from, and figure out if their own assumptions/biases/opinions were valid. Often this was accomplished by making statements or describing situations that were different from most commonly held opinions about what was right, proper, or possible. As an example, for those who think monogamous marriages are the only possible way humans can structure the male/female relationship, Heinlein&#8217;s detailing of not only other possible structures, but what advantages such structures would have would come as something of a shock.  </p>
<p>But what I was complaining about was those readers who don&#8217;t actually look at what Heinlein really said. Heinlein did not say &#8220;Government is highest thing you must pay fealty to&#8221; (far from it), but way too many people reading Starship Troopers seem to gather that impression.</p>
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		<title>By: David Wright Sr.</title>
		<link>http://hyperpat.wordpress.com/2006/12/28/fascism-and-starship-troopers-once-more/#comment-687</link>
		<dc:creator>David Wright Sr.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Feb 2007 18:02:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hyperpat.wordpress.com/2006/12/28/fascism-and-starship-troopers-once-more/#comment-687</guid>
		<description>&quot;But the major item I’ve noticed with most of his detractors is that they refuse to read him closely, that they read him through the prism of their own biases, and having rational discussions with such individuals is almost impossible. &quot;

I need to comment on this a little. Actually, IMO, one of Heinlein&#039;s very distinct styles was to write in such a way that the reader was forced to come at the books from his own perspective. You referred to this when talking about his sparse descriptions. This has the effect that you mentioned when a careless reader encounters Heinlein as you said, but it also provides the basis for forcing the thoughtful reader to look beyond simple appearances and examine his own prejudices. At least, that has been my experience since I first read him in 1953.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But the major item I’ve noticed with most of his detractors is that they refuse to read him closely, that they read him through the prism of their own biases, and having rational discussions with such individuals is almost impossible. &#8221;</p>
<p>I need to comment on this a little. Actually, IMO, one of Heinlein&#8217;s very distinct styles was to write in such a way that the reader was forced to come at the books from his own perspective. You referred to this when talking about his sparse descriptions. This has the effect that you mentioned when a careless reader encounters Heinlein as you said, but it also provides the basis for forcing the thoughtful reader to look beyond simple appearances and examine his own prejudices. At least, that has been my experience since I first read him in 1953.</p>
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		<title>By: hyperpat</title>
		<link>http://hyperpat.wordpress.com/2006/12/28/fascism-and-starship-troopers-once-more/#comment-633</link>
		<dc:creator>hyperpat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jan 2007 20:27:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hyperpat.wordpress.com/2006/12/28/fascism-and-starship-troopers-once-more/#comment-633</guid>
		<description>As a Heinlein Society member, I&#039;ve been kept abreast of the plans for all of this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a Heinlein Society member, I&#8217;ve been kept abreast of the plans for all of this.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://hyperpat.wordpress.com/2006/12/28/fascism-and-starship-troopers-once-more/#comment-631</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:57:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hyperpat.wordpress.com/2006/12/28/fascism-and-starship-troopers-once-more/#comment-631</guid>
		<description>I just stumbled on this site, but I am sure you are well aware of it already:

http://www.heinleincentennial.com/

Quite an interesting site.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just stumbled on this site, but I am sure you are well aware of it already:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.heinleincentennial.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.heinleincentennial.com/</a></p>
<p>Quite an interesting site.</p>
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		<title>By: Herbesse</title>
		<link>http://hyperpat.wordpress.com/2006/12/28/fascism-and-starship-troopers-once-more/#comment-576</link>
		<dc:creator>Herbesse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jan 2007 03:00:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hyperpat.wordpress.com/2006/12/28/fascism-and-starship-troopers-once-more/#comment-576</guid>
		<description>Will this make my Fascism stocks on trendio rise? http://www.trendio.com/word.php?language=en&amp;wordid=2190</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will this make my Fascism stocks on trendio rise? <a href="http://www.trendio.com/word.php?language=en&amp;wordid=2190" rel="nofollow">http://www.trendio.com/word.php?language=en&amp;wordid=2190</a></p>
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